From: Erkki Myllynen (emyllyne@viikki.helsinki.fi)

Su-25 Frogfoot has often been described as a Russian counterpart for A-10 Thunderbolt. I have never seen a direct comparison of these machines, so I humbly ask for Net Wisdom of the subject.

Something like: What were the main differences of the planned combat roles of these a/c? The tactics, survivability and need of support in the battlefield (fighter cover or such)? The ability to operate in difficult conditions, from short runways, with minimum maintenance? And of course, the usual comparison of the weapon systems and the aircraft themselves and other interesting discussion.

Although I understand where this description came from (Su-25 and A-10 have somewhat similar missions etc.) the real counterpart of A-10 never made to front lines with VVS. It was designed by Ilyshin and designated Il-102. The Il-102 was based on earlier Il-40 ground attack jet. This beast had similar to A-10 dimensions and performance (as opposite to speedy Su-25).

The Sukhoi Su-25 on the other hand is more of AlfaJet or attack version of BAe Hawk than A-10. In some respect it supported by the fact that few trainer versions of Su-25 popped out recently, including navalized version. One of them, Su-28, is a demilitarized Su-25UB. The aircraft outperforms L-39 and was used in aerobatics displays and competitions. Su-25 is amazing plane, its unprepared field performance is incredible and overall design simplifies logistics greatly:

• can use diesel fuel for its jets (not going to last very long, but still better than nothing).
• can haul fuel pump and some spares in special underwing containers. Sukhoi was fooling with idea to make people pods as well, so that ground crew could have been transported along with aircraft, but for some reason (lack of enthusiasm from the ground crews?) it did not came through
• it is performance in muddy unprepared airstrips is amazing: Su-25 were able to taxi where 6x6s trucks were stuck in the mud.

The smaller size of Su-25 and its greater speed gives it a higher chance to remain undetected by enemy CAP. Both a/c are not dogfighters and A-10 well separated engines and its IR shielding give A-10 better chance to survive once it was detected. The preproduction Su-25 designated T-8 were rushed in Afghanistan accompanied by Sukhoi OKB staff. The feedback was listen to and a number of the field modifications were made to improve the performance and survivability of the aircraft. For example, closely positioned engines of T-8 were both catching fire if one of them was hit by missile or AAA. This resulted in the loss of the whole aircraft. First time VVS encountered Stinger, they lost four Su-25 in one or two days (two pilots were killed). The defense and ECM were specialized for Red Eye and the Soviet first generation shoulder launched missile (SA-7 Grail). Sukhoi figured that upon impact Stinger shreds the rear fuel tank which is located right above the jet exhaust. This starts fire which kills both engines eventually. They installed few millimeters thick steel plate below fuel cell to give an extra protection. Another modification was a steel plate (I think 10 or 15 mm thick) between engine bays. After this modification no Su-25 were lost to Stinger according to Sukhoi team. Only 22 Su-25s were lost in nine(!) years of combat operations in Afghanistan.

The weapon systems were progressively upgraded and there is a development of Su-25 with radar pod (MAKS'95 photographed by Ken Duffey). Latest modification (Su-39) has greater range and much more capable than Su-25.

The Gratch (The Rook) emblem carried by several VVS Su-25s

In service with VVS Su-25 received a nickname "Gratch" (The Rook). This comes from the birds ability to get the food out of hard to reach spots, which is very similar to plane's ability to destroy the hardened targets in hard to reach locations in the mountains. The Afghanistani mujahideens called Su-25 "The German Product" because of their initial disbelieve that something that efficient can be designed by Soviets. It was the most feared and respected fixed wing aircraft. The Soviet infantry called Su-25 "Rascheska" (The Comb) because loaded Su-25 with its ten pylons occupied with the payload, resembled the comb if viewed from below. The VVS staff called Su-25 "Konyok-Gorbunok" which is a fictional animal from one of the fairtales by Bazhenov. This character is more like a pony or some sort of a miniature horse, which looks ugly and small, but can outperform the bigger (and faster) stablemates. Czechoslovak Su-25's were nicknamed "Steam Locomotives".

From: anthrax@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Stephen Vargojr)

Frogfoot was designed as a CAS machine and made it's combat debut in the early 1980's during the Soviet action in Afghanistan. In 1984, it achieved full operational status, and CIS production ended between 1991 and 92.

Su-25 (Frogfoot A)

This is the baseline version operated by the CIS. The Su25K is the export version. Weapons available include a double-barrel 30mm cannon with 250 rounds (5 1 second bursts), and underwing capacity for 9700 lbs (or 4400 kg) of ordnance on 8 pylons. This disposable ordnance can include UB32A pods with 32 57mm rockets, B8M1 pods with 20 80mm rockets, S4 240mm guided rockets, S5 330mm guided rockets, {NATO Designations} AS7 Kerry, AS10 Karen, & AS17 Kedge ASMs, laser-guided rocket-propelled bombs of 350, 490 and 670 kg weights, 500 kg dumb bombs of incendiary, anti-personnel, and chemical types, and SPPU22 23mm gun pods. For self defense, either AA2D Atolls or AA8 Aphids are carried on their own small pylon (1 per wing).

Su-25UB (Frogfoot B) (UB - Uchebno-Boevoi, Combat Trainer)

This is one of the 2-seat trainer versions. In order to give the rear seat occupant a decent view, the back seat is raised high up, which gives all of the 2-seaters a hunchbacked appearance. The -UB can carry the same weapon load as the Su25, and also keeps the cannon. Su25UBK's are exported.

Su-25UT (Frogfoot B) (UT - Uchebno-Trenirovochnyi, Trainer)

Same as the -UB, but stripped down without weapon capability inside or out- side.

Su-25UTG (Frogfoot B again) (UTG - Uchebno-Trenirovochnyi Gakovyi, Trainer Naval)

-UTs built with an arrestor hook for naval training use. Of 10 built, the Ukrainians own 5, while one of the remaining Russian 5 was wrecked and written off. The 4 Russian -UTGs make individual flights out to the "Adm. of the Fleet Kuznetsov."

Su-25BM (BM - Buksir Misheni, Target Tag)

Standard Su25 with extra underwing pylons for use as a target tug.

All of the Su25 series (Frogfoots? Frogfeet?) feature a 24mm welded titanium cockpit armor tub, an air mixing duct system to cool engine exhaust, and other survivability features like foam-filled fuel tanks and pushrod-actuated control surfaces. In addition, 256 flares or chaff packets are carried near the rear of the aircraft in the tailcone and above the engine exhausts. The laser designator and target indicating electronics are carried in the extreme nose.

Su-39 (Formerly known as Su-25TM Tankovyi Modifitsirovannyi, Antitank)

3 Su25UBs had the rear seat and cockpit fittings ripped out and the opening plated over. This space now holds a fuel cell and extra avionics. Russia owns the 20 built so far. The Su-39 is the Frogfoot with post-Afghan lessons applied. It can make automatic flights to and from its' destination, and has a TV camera system added in the nose allowing for automatic tracking. Weapon selection and release can also be done automatically. Chaff Packet and flare capacity is expanded by adding launchers to the wingtip pods, which were before just for airbrake units. Further IR protection is gained by adding a jammer optimized for Stinger and Redeye missiles in a large can-like housing under the rudder. Weapon-wise, the 30mm cannon is moved under the belly and has 50 fewer rounds. Added weapons on 10 pylons include 2 8-round capacity racks of AT9 anti armor missiles, laser-guided versions of Karen and Kedge, AS17 Krypton, and the AS11 Kilter anti radar missile. Also added were the laser-guided version of the S25 rocket and the KAB500 LGB.

All in all, the Frogfoot can be a tough customer in the hands of a good pilot. All weapon-capable versions can also live in the field. Four pods carry the necessary ground gear for checking the onboard systems, protection from the weather, ground power, and pressure refueling. The engines are also capable of operation on many types of fuel, including automotive gasoline and diesel fuel, but at much shorter operational lifespans.

Alexei Gretchikhine:

Trainers and latest versions of Su-25 are build at Ulan-Ude plant (Siberia). Original Su-25 line in Tbilisi, Georgia ended up being abroad after disintegration of the Soviet Union. Every Frogfoot from Ulan-Ude carries a Bear emblem.

Urban Fredriksson adds:

Sukhoi's Su-25TM will be developed by 1997 and is now designated Su-39. The Su-39 will carry a Kopyo-25 multi mode radar in a pod under the fuselage and in addition to the Vikhr and other ground attack and anti-ship missiles will be capable of carrying AAMs like R-27, R-27ER, R-60, R-73 and R-77. The IR signature has been lowered by about four times by the adoption of cooling intakes on the upper surface of aircraft and a new center body which masks hot turbine blades.

From: TZ

>It has two turbojet engines -- 39.23 kN Tumanskiy/Soyuz R-95 in early
>production aircraft, 44.13 kN Tumanskiy/Soyuz R-195 engines in later
>aircraft. Armament is a twin-barrel 30mm cannon with 250 rounds, and
>up to 4400 kg (R-95 engines) or 6400 kg (R-195) payload on 10 underwing
>hardpoints.

>Dimensions: Length 15.53 m, wingspan 14.36 m

>Weights: Empty 9500 kg, max t/o 17600 kg (R-95) or 19200 kg (R-195)

>Known variants:

>  (R-95 engines)
>    Su-25    -- Original production ground attack aircraft
>    Su-25K   -- Export version of Su-25
>    Su-25UB  -- Two-seat combat trainer
>    Su-25UBK -- Export version of Su-25UB
>    Su-25UBP -- Naval trainer based on Su-25UB
>    Su-25UT  -- Unarmed primary trainer (sometimes referred to as Su-28)
>    Su-25UTG -- Naval trainer based on Su-25UT
>  (R-195 engines)
>    Su-25BM  -- Enhanced ground attack aircraft (this is the current
>                production version, and the most numerous in Russian
>                service)
>    Su-25T   -- Proposed enhanced version with more armour, improved
>                sensors, and possibly a new gun and engines
>    Su-25TK  -- Proposed export version of Su-25T

Just a couple of comments. The Su-25T/TK version was originally supposed to go into service as the Su-34, but that was eventually given to the Su-27IB "Flanker" bomber variant, and the Su-25T's production designation is Su-39.

Despite an early report that the program had been canceled, the 1994-5 Jane's reported that about 20 are in service with the Russian VVS, and deliveries are continuing.

Second, the Su-25BM was only used as a weapons trainer and target tug, and is not a very numerous variant. The most numerous in-service variant is the original Su-25, with about 450 in VVS service and another 100-200 having been exported.

Finally, the original pre-production machines which were deployed to Afghanistan for operational trials in the early 1980s were designed T-8, the Sukhoi OKB designation. The Su-39 pre-production aircraft were called T-8M.

From: agretch@aeroweb.lucia.it (ALEXEI GRETCHIKHINE)

barbiero@nis.net (Andreas Barbiero) wrote:

The Su-25 has never had a chance to be deployed fully or used in combat seriously. From what I remember it has poor loitering capability and a weak warload. Anyone have any further info?

About 40 Su-25 were deployed in Afghanistan. The total of 61,600 hrs of operational flying time were accumulated.

Normal payload is close to 3100 lb (1400kg) and maximum load is 9700 lb (4400kg). Look up A-10 numbers and keep in mind that Su-25 is much smaller aircraft.

As for it being better than the A-10 - never. Inefficient engines and none of the system redundancy or survival features of the A-10.

Use of turbojets gave Su-25 a maximum speed at low level of 526 knots (975 km/hr), which is far healthier than the 368 knots (682 km/hr) of the thick-wing turbofan-powered A-10. Of course SFC was sacrificed and the short endurance was quoted as one of the drawbacks of the Frogfoot.. Nevertheless, maximum range while carrying the maximum combat load plus two drop tanks is 400 nm (750 km) at low level or 675 nm (1250 km) at altitude.

The protective measures of Su-25 represent 7.5% of normal take off weight (some 2415 lb (1095 kg)) which is comparable with A-10's 2887 lb (1310kg).

All vital controls are protected by armor. Flying controls are actuated via 40 mm diameter titanium rods that are proof against 12.7 mm strikes, and the pitch control rods are duplicated.

Even if it were better than the A-10 in attack capability (which it might have an edge with all those smaller caliber cannons) it could not survive a hot environment as well.

Is this a guestimate? My guess is that Su-25 would not have to spend the same amount of time in "hot environment" due to its higher speed. It has a reasonable protection, in some respects even better than A-10 (pilot's rear armor). It might do well and in fact it did OK in Afghanistan. 23 Su-25 were lost over nine years of conflict, with loss rate of one a/c per 2,800 hrs of operational flying. Someone got to look up in "Gulf War Air Debrief" (or whatever the name is) and check the numbers for A-10. I would not try to draw a deep conclusion out of these numbers, because of the difference in nature of anti-air warfare in these conflicts, but taking into consideration that both VVS and Allied AF enjoyed complete air supremacy, it is worth to check. One particular Su-25 (actually preproduction T-8-15 or Blue 15) flown by Colonel Alexander V. Rutskoj was damaged by AAA and two (!) AIM-9L Sidewinders launched by Pakistani F-16s. Both times the aircraft brought pilot back to base. It was "refurbished" in Tbilisi and after receiving new paint job and bort number Blue 301 it was displayed in Paris in 1989. It was further modified for the weapon trials which included S-240 and S-25 330 mm unguided rockets. This aircraft currently on display at Khodynka Museum.

Here are few more stories highlighting Su-25 roughness:

-Major Rubalov's Su-25 was hit in the engine which surged and flooded an engine bay with fuel, the cockpit was shattered, buster controls are gone and major's face covered with blood. None of the dials in the cockpit worked and his wingman guided him to the final approach. After belly landing, major rushed away from the Su-25 fearing that plane going to explode. After figuring that this is not going to happen, he got back to the aircraft and cut the engine.

-Another Su-25 was on fire which burned out most of the wiring and 95% of horizontal tail controls. In few moments before the landing, fire short cut the gear release wires and Su-25 made "conventional" landing.

-Lieutenant Golubtsov's Su-25 lost half of its rudder along with breaks. After landing his a/c ended up off runaway and rolled into adjacent mine field. He was forced to wait in the cockpit till mine squad cleared his way out.

-One Su-25 brought a missile in the engine which failed to detonate. (SAM?)

-Rutskoi's Su-25 was hit by AAA (ZGU) when a missile (Blowpipe) hit right engine (head on - it "turned off" the engine though the intake). Second AAA finally managed to shot it down. This is a second Frogfoot he flew (not the preproduction T-8-15 Blue 15 which was damaged twice). Rutskoi spent some time as Pakistani POW and was shortly exchanged.